Alan Chambers has been especially in my prayers since I was ‘introduced’ to him by way of the site Ex-Gay + Still Gay. I had heard in the news about the Ex-Gay celebration that had to be cancelled because of gay activist’s protest. I was allowed to ‘join’ the EG=SG on-line group. I wanted to see what they were about. When I asked their purpose, I was sent the links to the TV interviews where Mr. Chambers faced his ‘accusers’. I watched In tears his long statement to them.
I am now 70 years old and from high school realized attraction to same sex persons. Back then I had never heard of ‘gay’ or any other term for what I felt and it was a few years before I discovered the lifestyle. Then at age 30 I had a ‘Road to Damascus’ experience. I had no interest in God at all. He was totally irrelevant in my world, but He right then in my apartment regenerated me and made me new. Alan in his words related much of what was my experience. I expected to have totally different temptations. However, I struggled with attractions for years. Somehow, God directed me to the right persons to confide in and have pray with me each time and I was strengthened each time. I did finally come to the conclusion that my best approach was to admit that these temptations were something I had no control over and admitting this was my first step to victory. I did know, though, that my temptations are NOT what define me. First and foremost, it is Christ who defines me…’and such was I….but I am washed’. That is Truth.
In the intervening years the Lord used me to minister to several gays as they were re-born and even today continue to live as God had designed them to live….though most others are celibate. I eventually married a wonderful Godly man and the Lord uses us in His church.
I firmly believe that ‘some are called’ and not every gay can ‘change’. Certainly, no one can change such basic of desires on their own or even through any kind of therapy. This is something only God can do. I believe that Exodus has a valid ministry for those whom God has chosen and in those cases He will be faithful to complete the work.
I do think that for anyone to hold the ‘carrot’ in front of everyone who is gay and tell them they can change is not a good thing. We can only tell them our stories and let them know what God can do. Those who can hear, will and those who cannot hear will not. We must leave results in God’s hands. I spent some time as a missionary and most of that time was inner-city work. I pursued gays religiously to the point that the Metropolitan Church knew me by name and warned their membership against speaking to me. That was a sign of some ‘success’. However, over time there is little fruit to show. The lead minister and another minister in that group both returned to the lifestyle. That was the greatest discouragement for me. I would pray and think that if they could not make it, how do I think that I will. However, I now can see the situation for both of those men.
I John explains clearly in 2:19 ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.’ That is painful….very much so, but God is God and He is truth, He is love, He is the designer of all things.
Scripture has really helped me understand myself, but to also accept the fact that so many of my friends went back into the lifestyle.
God bless you all !!!
Thank you for your courage to tell the truth and raise church consciousness beyond fear and control, so all may now be ‘Fathered’ by Christ consciousness, trusting our paths are Divinely led. All may now come before God’s as inherently perfect children (original blessing, instead of original sin), still navigating earthly existance, yet knowing of God’s ongoing guarantee of blessing. What a wonderful shift for the LGBTQ community and purpose for the church. Swords have now been turned into plow shares, for there is no longer a battle or war to be waged. Christ heals with love, the only effective remedy that ever was. Amen.
I have just had time to listen to Mr. Chambers opening address and see that part of what is happening with him is a theological shift. I can certainly see how many churches would disassociate from him over his comment that sounded a bit like ‘once saved, always saved’. However, I smile at this as I, too have made this same shift….or I should say, that God in His grace has brought me to understand truths about who He is and how He works with His created ones. It is very important, though, to understand how we come to be saved in the first place. It is thru God’s hand alone, His work alone that saves us. Anytime a person thru his own efforts tries to save himself, even if it is by using God language, or Jesus language it is no good. It is equally useless for us as Christians to try to save someone by dragging them into Christian circles and getting them to recite the sinners prayer. God, in His time WILL transform those that are His. God’s Word holds all the keys. I have had to lay aside much of my pet beliefs about God and read His Word with an open heart. He is a holy God and requires much more of us than we sometimes want to give, but He works in us to do it. The process of our sanctification continues. He will make us more and more like Him.
I am confused as to your metamorphosis–are you saying no behavior is off limits–that is, do you now agree with the Episcopal Church in endorsing openly gay pastors as part of not judging or not saying who is worthy of Christ. So can I continue to live the gay lifestyle with your blessings? God is OK with who I am and does not care how I live and the churches now are OK with who I am and how I live? Please reply–I really am so confused as to what you really said. Thank you and God. Bless.
Janie, I await Mr. Chambers answer, also. However, after seeing his heart revealed in his words to his gay adversaries, I feel certain that he is exactly where I stand and that stand is firmly on God’s Word. His Word is very clear regarding behavior He expects of His redeemed ones. There is no compromise on that issue. The difference is that I have come to realize that my temptations did not change with rebirth. And If I fall, that is the direction I would/will go. Remember, Romans chapter 1 addresses many temptations other than ours. Backbiting is found in almost every church group I have ever been in and yet it is listed right there along with same sex behaviors. This makes it clear to me that my falls into unfaithfulness, and the church member’s fall into back biting are seen as the same in God’s eyes. Grace is important. But just as important is our keeping firmly in our minds the holiness of our God and His promised faithfulness to complete His work in us to become more like him and less like ourselves.
Thank you for your reply. Of course the temptations may not change after rebirth. Is that what Exodus International has been teaching all these years? Everyone has disordered inclinations of some kind or another. Someone can be totally disordered in the area of covetousness of another’ s wife–if one acts on this inclination, the result is always sinful. SSA in and of itself is disordered; anyone who has taken basic biology should understand this. SSA is disordered because acting on the inclination is always sinful and disordered. If a straight person is adulterous/fornication with another straight person, that is sinful but the sexual act itself is not disordered. If a gay person has sexual acts with another gay person, there will never be a time when the act itself will not be disordered. So what is the big deal about the orientation? The orientation itself is not sinful and may always be a part of a person. This in no way is a block to being a child of God–it is just a Cross to bear. But Christ tells us to “pick up our Cross and follow Him”. Do we think as Christians we can say a “sinner’s prayer” and everything will be roses? What a stupid view. Can God take away a disordered orientation? Of course. Does this always happen? NO! Again, everyone has issues of some sort and the answer is not to make the “issue” tolerated and accepted. The answer is to lean on Christ to live a holy life. Again, the orientation is NOT sinful, it is disordered for the reason stated above–to act on it there will never be a time where the act itself would not be disordered and sinful, this is the difference between gay and straight. A straight person can be sinful but the sexual act itself is not disordered. Sex outside of marriage for a straight is sinful but the sex act itself is ordered according to creation. I think the teaching of “always saved” has given license to many to live as they want to–especially where an orientation is very strong. God Bless.
Good comments, Janie. Obviously we are in agreement on the issues you mentioned.
I believe the biggest problem with the ‘always saved’ teaching, as you called it, is that it is primarily found in churches without solid teaching on just what salvation is and how one is ‘saved’. Almost every church I have been around where you hear that phrase a lot, is a church that is very sloppy on the issue of salvation. Walking an aisle never saved anyone….same with a ‘confession of faith’. Those acts are meaningful only when it is done by the undeniable prompting of the Holy Spirit, and NOT an act in response to a high powered altar call, or even as a response to a high powered and convincing conversation. We are all too quick to declare someone ‘saved’. That is for God alone to do. The truest test of salvation is whether or not the person proceeds to walk with Christ and continues to do so. A lot of Baptist churches stress the ‘preservation’ of our faith, as an act of God. I think that scripture puts more emphasis on ‘perseverance’ as a test of salvation. In many testimonies you will hear how someone was wracked with guilt by their sin. That may lead a person to seek relief and certainly Christ offers the answer. But many times, tears shed in contrition are no more than that, and the person goes right back to their sinful lifestyle. Christ’s parable about the seeds sown are an illustration of what I am talking about.
Joy Connery says
August 2, 2013 at 10:42 amAlan Chambers has been especially in my prayers since I was ‘introduced’ to him by way of the site Ex-Gay + Still Gay. I had heard in the news about the Ex-Gay celebration that had to be cancelled because of gay activist’s protest. I was allowed to ‘join’ the EG=SG on-line group. I wanted to see what they were about. When I asked their purpose, I was sent the links to the TV interviews where Mr. Chambers faced his ‘accusers’. I watched In tears his long statement to them.
I am now 70 years old and from high school realized attraction to same sex persons. Back then I had never heard of ‘gay’ or any other term for what I felt and it was a few years before I discovered the lifestyle. Then at age 30 I had a ‘Road to Damascus’ experience. I had no interest in God at all. He was totally irrelevant in my world, but He right then in my apartment regenerated me and made me new. Alan in his words related much of what was my experience. I expected to have totally different temptations. However, I struggled with attractions for years. Somehow, God directed me to the right persons to confide in and have pray with me each time and I was strengthened each time. I did finally come to the conclusion that my best approach was to admit that these temptations were something I had no control over and admitting this was my first step to victory. I did know, though, that my temptations are NOT what define me. First and foremost, it is Christ who defines me…’and such was I….but I am washed’. That is Truth.
In the intervening years the Lord used me to minister to several gays as they were re-born and even today continue to live as God had designed them to live….though most others are celibate. I eventually married a wonderful Godly man and the Lord uses us in His church.
I firmly believe that ‘some are called’ and not every gay can ‘change’. Certainly, no one can change such basic of desires on their own or even through any kind of therapy. This is something only God can do. I believe that Exodus has a valid ministry for those whom God has chosen and in those cases He will be faithful to complete the work.
I do think that for anyone to hold the ‘carrot’ in front of everyone who is gay and tell them they can change is not a good thing. We can only tell them our stories and let them know what God can do. Those who can hear, will and those who cannot hear will not. We must leave results in God’s hands. I spent some time as a missionary and most of that time was inner-city work. I pursued gays religiously to the point that the Metropolitan Church knew me by name and warned their membership against speaking to me. That was a sign of some ‘success’. However, over time there is little fruit to show. The lead minister and another minister in that group both returned to the lifestyle. That was the greatest discouragement for me. I would pray and think that if they could not make it, how do I think that I will. However, I now can see the situation for both of those men.
I John explains clearly in 2:19 ‘They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.’ That is painful….very much so, but God is God and He is truth, He is love, He is the designer of all things.
Scripture has really helped me understand myself, but to also accept the fact that so many of my friends went back into the lifestyle.
God bless you all !!!
melanie says
August 4, 2013 at 3:01 amThank you for your courage to tell the truth and raise church consciousness beyond fear and control, so all may now be ‘Fathered’ by Christ consciousness, trusting our paths are Divinely led. All may now come before God’s as inherently perfect children (original blessing, instead of original sin), still navigating earthly existance, yet knowing of God’s ongoing guarantee of blessing. What a wonderful shift for the LGBTQ community and purpose for the church. Swords have now been turned into plow shares, for there is no longer a battle or war to be waged. Christ heals with love, the only effective remedy that ever was. Amen.
Joy Kindred Connery says
August 4, 2013 at 10:56 pmI have just had time to listen to Mr. Chambers opening address and see that part of what is happening with him is a theological shift. I can certainly see how many churches would disassociate from him over his comment that sounded a bit like ‘once saved, always saved’. However, I smile at this as I, too have made this same shift….or I should say, that God in His grace has brought me to understand truths about who He is and how He works with His created ones. It is very important, though, to understand how we come to be saved in the first place. It is thru God’s hand alone, His work alone that saves us. Anytime a person thru his own efforts tries to save himself, even if it is by using God language, or Jesus language it is no good. It is equally useless for us as Christians to try to save someone by dragging them into Christian circles and getting them to recite the sinners prayer. God, in His time WILL transform those that are His. God’s Word holds all the keys. I have had to lay aside much of my pet beliefs about God and read His Word with an open heart. He is a holy God and requires much more of us than we sometimes want to give, but He works in us to do it. The process of our sanctification continues. He will make us more and more like Him.
Janie Harris says
August 6, 2013 at 12:45 pmI am confused as to your metamorphosis–are you saying no behavior is off limits–that is, do you now agree with the Episcopal Church in endorsing openly gay pastors as part of not judging or not saying who is worthy of Christ. So can I continue to live the gay lifestyle with your blessings? God is OK with who I am and does not care how I live and the churches now are OK with who I am and how I live? Please reply–I really am so confused as to what you really said. Thank you and God. Bless.
Joy Kindred Connery says
August 7, 2013 at 2:15 pmJanie, I await Mr. Chambers answer, also. However, after seeing his heart revealed in his words to his gay adversaries, I feel certain that he is exactly where I stand and that stand is firmly on God’s Word. His Word is very clear regarding behavior He expects of His redeemed ones. There is no compromise on that issue. The difference is that I have come to realize that my temptations did not change with rebirth. And If I fall, that is the direction I would/will go. Remember, Romans chapter 1 addresses many temptations other than ours. Backbiting is found in almost every church group I have ever been in and yet it is listed right there along with same sex behaviors. This makes it clear to me that my falls into unfaithfulness, and the church member’s fall into back biting are seen as the same in God’s eyes. Grace is important. But just as important is our keeping firmly in our minds the holiness of our God and His promised faithfulness to complete His work in us to become more like him and less like ourselves.
Janie Harris says
August 8, 2013 at 12:31 pmThank you for your reply. Of course the temptations may not change after rebirth. Is that what Exodus International has been teaching all these years? Everyone has disordered inclinations of some kind or another. Someone can be totally disordered in the area of covetousness of another’ s wife–if one acts on this inclination, the result is always sinful. SSA in and of itself is disordered; anyone who has taken basic biology should understand this. SSA is disordered because acting on the inclination is always sinful and disordered. If a straight person is adulterous/fornication with another straight person, that is sinful but the sexual act itself is not disordered. If a gay person has sexual acts with another gay person, there will never be a time when the act itself will not be disordered. So what is the big deal about the orientation? The orientation itself is not sinful and may always be a part of a person. This in no way is a block to being a child of God–it is just a Cross to bear. But Christ tells us to “pick up our Cross and follow Him”. Do we think as Christians we can say a “sinner’s prayer” and everything will be roses? What a stupid view. Can God take away a disordered orientation? Of course. Does this always happen? NO! Again, everyone has issues of some sort and the answer is not to make the “issue” tolerated and accepted. The answer is to lean on Christ to live a holy life. Again, the orientation is NOT sinful, it is disordered for the reason stated above–to act on it there will never be a time where the act itself would not be disordered and sinful, this is the difference between gay and straight. A straight person can be sinful but the sexual act itself is not disordered. Sex outside of marriage for a straight is sinful but the sex act itself is ordered according to creation. I think the teaching of “always saved” has given license to many to live as they want to–especially where an orientation is very strong. God Bless.
Joy Kindred Connery says
August 9, 2013 at 12:44 amGood comments, Janie. Obviously we are in agreement on the issues you mentioned.
I believe the biggest problem with the ‘always saved’ teaching, as you called it, is that it is primarily found in churches without solid teaching on just what salvation is and how one is ‘saved’. Almost every church I have been around where you hear that phrase a lot, is a church that is very sloppy on the issue of salvation. Walking an aisle never saved anyone….same with a ‘confession of faith’. Those acts are meaningful only when it is done by the undeniable prompting of the Holy Spirit, and NOT an act in response to a high powered altar call, or even as a response to a high powered and convincing conversation. We are all too quick to declare someone ‘saved’. That is for God alone to do. The truest test of salvation is whether or not the person proceeds to walk with Christ and continues to do so. A lot of Baptist churches stress the ‘preservation’ of our faith, as an act of God. I think that scripture puts more emphasis on ‘perseverance’ as a test of salvation. In many testimonies you will hear how someone was wracked with guilt by their sin. That may lead a person to seek relief and certainly Christ offers the answer. But many times, tears shed in contrition are no more than that, and the person goes right back to their sinful lifestyle. Christ’s parable about the seeds sown are an illustration of what I am talking about.
Janie Harris says
August 9, 2013 at 3:11 pmAmen and God Bless.